Richard Fitzalan, E of Arundel (1313-1375/6) m. Eleanor of Lancaster.
They had a child:
Richard Fitzalan, E of Arundel (1346-1397) m. Elizabeth de Bohun.
That much appears to be uncontested. Now for the confusion.
Apparently each Richard, father and son, had a daughter named Alice. The CP article on
Arundel, unfortunately is silent on them. Weis AR7 documents them both, but a close
examination reveals that Weis has them hopelessly confused. I will not even attempt here
to eplain the extent of the confusion.
Following are facts about one or the other of the Alices. Can someone please sort out for
me which facts pertain to which Alice? Birth and death dates for each of them would also
be appreciated. I have seen the birthdate 1373/5 assigned to both of them, which obviously
can't be correct.
1. Alice m. Sir John Cherlton, 4th baron of Powis, who d.s.p. 10 Oct 1401.
2. Alice had an affair with Henry Beaufort, Bishop of Lincoln, in their youth.
3. Alice m. Thomas de Holand, E of Kent (1350-1397). They had a dau., Eleanor, who m.
(1) Roger de Mortimer and (2) - this is where it really wild! - Sir Edward Cherleton, son
of John IV Cherleton AND ALICE FITZALAN !?!?!?
Cokayne's "Complete Peerage" (Kent, pp. 155-156), identifies Alice the wife of
Thomas de Holand as the dau. of Richard Fitzalan and Eleanor of Lancaster, saying she died
1415/16, but at this point I'm not sure I can count on that for sure.
Is the rest of the world confused on these Alices, or is it just me (and Weis)?
Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! (jstevens@iquest.net) Jim
Visit my genealogy website at
http://www.gendex.com/users/jast
*******************************************************
What I've gleaned:
Descendants of Richard FitzAlan
1 [2] Richard FitzAlan b: ca.
1313 d: 24 Jan 1375/76 ref #: W121-6
. +Isabel le Despencer b: ca.
1312 ref #: F55:10
2 Edmund FitzAlan b: ca. 1327
d: Aft. 1376 ref #: F55:9
. +Sybil de Montacute
d: 30 Jan 1343/44 ref #:
BxP:372
3 Alice FitzAlan
ref #: W35-8
.. +Leonard Carew b: 1342
d: 1370 ref #: (Ä28-35)
3 Philippe FitzAlan
d: 13 Sep 1399 ref #: F55:8
.. +Richard Cergeaux
d: 30 Sep 1393
2 Mary FitzAlan
d: 29 Aug 1396 ref #:
F55:10ii
. +John le Strange b: 1322
d: 12 May 1361 ref #: BxP:516
3 [1] Ankaret le Strange b:
ca. 1361 d: 1 Jun 1413 ref #: F55:10iia
.. +Richard Talbot b: ca. 1361
d: 9 Sep 1396 ref #: F263:8
*2nd Husband of [1] Ankaret le Strange:
.. +Thomas de Neville b: ca.
1362 d: 14 Mar 1406/07 ref #: BxP:393
*2nd Wife of [2] Richard FitzAlan:
. +Alianor Plantagenet b: ca.
1318 d: 11 Jan 1371/72 ref #: F186:10
2 [3] Richard FitzAlan b:
1346 d: 21 Sep 1397 ref #: F106:12
. +Philippe de Mortimer b: 21
Nov 1375 d: 24 Sep 1401 ref #: BxP:384
*2nd Wife of [3] Richard FitzAlan:
. +Elizabeth de Bohun
d: 3 Apr 1385 ref #: W19-7
3 [4] Alice FitzAlan b: ca.
1374 ref #: F106:12i
.. +Henry Beaufort b: ca. 1375
d: 11 Apr 1447 ref #: F15:11ii
*2nd Husband of [4] Alice FitzAlan:
.. +John Cherleton
3 [5] Elizabeth FitzAlan b:
1375 d: 8 Jul 1425 ref #: F106:11
.. +William de Montacute
d: 6 Aug 1382
*2nd Husband of [5] Elizabeth FitzAlan:
.. +Thomas de Mowbray b: 22
Mar 1365/66 d: 22 Sep 1399 ref #: F197:9
*3rd Husband of [5] Elizabeth FitzAlan:
.. +Robert Goushill
d: 21 Jul 1403 ref #:
(Ä57-36)
*4th Husband of [5] Elizabeth FitzAlan:
.. +Gerard Ufflete
d: ca. 1421
3 Joan FitzAlan b: 1375
d: 14 Nov 1435 ref #: F106:12iii
.. +William de Beauchamp b:
Aft. 1344 d: 8 May 1411 ref #: W17-8
3 Thomas FitzAlan
d: 1415 ref #: BxP:201
2 John de Arundel
d: 15 Dec 1379 ref #: F36:11
. +Alianor Maltravers b: ca.
1345 d: 10 Jan 1404/05 ref #: W88-8
3 John de Arundel b: 30 Nov
1364 d: 14 Aug 1390 ref #: F37:10
.. +Elizabeth Despencer
d: 11 Apr 1408 ref #:
F62:9iii
3 Richard de Arundel
d: 3 Jun 1419 ref #: F279:7
.. +Alice
d: 30 Aug 1436
3 [6] Joan de Arundel
d: 1 Sep 1404 ref #: F95:9
.. +William de Brien
d: ca. 1413 ref #: (Ä59-35)
*2nd Husband of [6] Joan de Arundel:
.. +William de Echingham
d: 20 Mar 1412/13 ref #:
(Ä59-35)
3 Margaret de Arundel
d: 3 Jul 1438 ref #: F36:11iv
.. +William de Ros b: ca. 1368
d: 1 Sep 1414 ref #: F242:10
2 Joan FitzAlan
d: 7 Apr 1419 ref #:
F105:13iii
. +Humphrey de Bohun b: 25 Mar
1342 d: 16 Jan 1372/73 ref #: F25:10
3 Alianore de Bohun b: ca.
1366 d: 3 Oct 1399 ref #: W18-8
.. +Thomas Plantagenet b: 7
Jan 1354/55 d: Sep 1397 ref #: F158:9
3 Mary de Bohun b: ca. 1370
d: 4 Jul 1394 ref #: F25:10ii
.. +Henry IV of England b: Apr
1366 d: 20 Mar 1412/13 ref #: F156:10
2 Alice FitzAlan
d: 17 Mar 1415/16 ref #:
F105:13iv
. +Thomas de Holand b: ca.
1350 d: 25 Apr 1397 ref #: F140:8
3 [7] Joan de Holand b: ca.
1380 d: 12 Apr 1434 ref #: BxP:279
.. +Edmund Plantagenet b: 5
Jun 1344 d: 1 Aug 1402 ref #: F291:9
*2nd Husband of [7] Joan de Holand:
.. +William de Eresby
*3rd Husband of [7] Joan de Holand:
.. +Henry le Scrope
ref #: BxP:482
*4th Husband of [7] Joan de Holand:
.. +Henry Brounflete
d: 6 Jan 1467/68
3 Thomas de Holand
d: 1400 ref #: BxP:279
.. +Joane de Stafford
ref #: BxP:499
3 [8] Edmund de Holand b: 6
Jan 1382/83 d: 15 Sep 1408 ref #: F140:8i
.. +Constance Plantagenet b:
ca. 1374 d: 29 Nov 1416 ref #: F210:8
*2nd Wife of [8] Edmund de Holand:
.. +Lucy Visconti
d: 14 Apr 1424 ref #: BxP:279
3 [9] Margaret de Holand b:
1385 d: 30 Dec 1429 ref #: F140:8ii
.. +John Beaufort b: ca. 1372
d: 16 Mar 1409/10 ref #: F16:10
*2nd Husband of [9] Margaret de Holand:
.. +Thomas Plantagenet b: 29
Sep 1388 d: 22 Mar 1420/21 ref #:
F156:10iii
3 [10] Alainor [I] de Holand
b: Bef. 1387 d: Oct 1405 ref #:
F140:8iii
.. +Roger de Mortimer b: 11
Apr 1374 d: 20 Jul 1398 ref #: F232:9
*2nd Husband of [10] Alainor [I] de Holand:
.. +Edward Cherleton b: ca.
1371 d: 14 Mar 1420/21 ref #: F57:11
3 Alainor [II] de Holand b:
1387 d: Aft. 1413 ref #: F140:8iv
.. +Thomas de Montacute b: ca.
1388 d: 3 Nov 1428 ref #: F193:9
3 Elizabeth de Holand
d: ca. 1423 ref #: BxP:279
.. +John Neville b: ca. 1387
d: 1420 ref #: BxP:393
2 Elizabeth FitzAlan
ref #: BxP:316
. +William Latimer b: 1330
d: 1380 ref #: BxP:316
3 [11] Elizabeth Latimer
d: 5 Nov 1395
.. +John de Neville b: ca.
1331 d: 17 Oct 1388 ref #: W45-6
*2nd Husband of [11] Elizabeth Latimer:
.. +Robert Willoughby
ref #: BPci:59
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edlmann@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
*************************************************************
X-Message: #8
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:02:25 -0700
From: Mardi Carter <mardicar@valley-internet.net>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Message-ID: <34E114BF.6E89@valley-internet.net>
Subject: Confusion between 2 Alices FitzAlan
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sorry, I lost the original message so can't quote the problems, but it
involves confusion between the various Alices FitzAlan.
See the article in TAG 32: 10-11. My notes indicate that Weis calls her
dau of Richard who d. 1375/6 quoting TAG as a source, but it (TAG) calls
her dau. of his son Richard (d. 1397) and Elizabeth Bohun. The article
indicates that Alice b. abt. 1373/5 had an affair with Henry Beaufort
with issue dau. Jane/Joan who m. Sir Edward Stradling. This same Alice
m. bef. MAR 1392 Sir John Cherleton. Alice's death is not recorded.
As to the other Alice who m. Thomas de Holand, she was b. 1349/50, was
dau. of Richard FitzAlan (d. 1375/6) and Eleanor Plantagenet. Alice d.
17 MAR 1415/6.
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